SethBling
10 HN recommenders · recommended in 17 months, 2015–2026
5:58 · 12M views · Jun 13, 2015
SethBling shows MarI/O, a program using neural networks and the NEAT genetic algorithm to learn to play Super Mario World. The description links the source code, the paper and background reading.
The go-to accessible introduction to neuroevolution and NEAT, praised for crediting prior research.
20 comments from Hacker News
I'm a novice at machine learning, but Open AI made a python library for reinforcement learning in video games, and a fork of it is still actively maintained [1]. It's been a few years, but I remember being able to get it up and running in a day or two (maybe a weekend). It used the Retroarch emulator, which is compatible with a huge number of emulators and consoles. [LINK] There also SethBling's excellent video on YouTube about machine learning specifically with Super Mario World: this video I encourage you to give it a try! I feel that video games are a bit underrated by current AI buzz, I think there's lots of potential for a machine to learn a skill through playing a game. And lots of potential for a game being selected or even created with the goal of teaching a specific skill. However at that point maybe it's better to forego the audio and visuals and speak to the machine in text or with pure data. On the other hand, I have seen a video about convolutional neural networks that feed on each pixel of an image. So perhaps training with sound data, or with the pixels of a spectrogram, could have some positive results. And certainly I would be amused to see a game played in time with music, or possibly even dancing with a songs melody, harmony, and story as well. Anything that's ever been created by humans, existed first in the imagination of a human brain. And you've got one of those. A mental vision pursued and brought from the mind into physical reality is a beautiful thing,
OP, Togelius, is quite wrong in 1 point at least. tl;dr Seth Bling directly references NEAT and his links[Show More [1]] link to 2 Togelius papers[13][14] among many others ! To wit, in OP, Togelius mentions Seth Bling's MarI/O[1] as lacking scholarship because he didn't mention Togelius: " seen as research, it is atrocious because of the complete lack of scholarship. The guy didn't even know he was reinventing the wheel, and didn't care to look it up. " Rather disdaignfully (sadly/ ironically/ poigniantly) Togelius refers to Seth not by name but only as " some guy ". Yet Seth Bling[2] in his short video, mentions and explains NEAT and directly links Ken Stanley's and Risto Miikkulainen's foundational NEAT paper[10] at U.texas which Togelius builds on [hint: click SHOW MORE under Seth's video] And much more, i.e.: ---- the innovative toolchain Seth uses: Bizhawk to script SNES emulators in Lua [12]! ---- Seth links the wikipedia page on Neuroevolution[11] which directly references 2 of Togelius's own papers[13][14] Seth's [Show More] Links on the MarI/O video[1] are very very comprehensive and (IMHO) indeed a great example of scholarship ! Togelius is a top flight scholar, and publishes in the field of AI game players and level generators[15] so I hope he will welcome some random tinkerer pointing out his error. [full disclosure: I am a Togelius fan] To give Togelius his due he does at least link to Seth's MarI/O video. Perhaps Togelius failed to click / read the Show More li
Here is my favorite introduction to NEAT: SethBling's MarI/O - Machine Learning for Video Games this video
If a human brain doesn’t use maths, what does it use? It’s Magic? > "training", more accurately described as references Uh, no, that's not at all how the training process works. The training process very roughly mirrors evolution/natural selection except more more direct and faster. This is a good introduction to the concept of how a computer could learn: this video This is a more technical look at how exactly it works in more modern AIs: [LINK] (it's a series) > If it encounters a problem it hasn't been programmed for, it cannot reason a new solution. But an LLM can? It's not as good at it as a human but it can Relevant: [LINK] (if you don’t want to click it it says “referring to AI models as "just math" or "matrix multiplication" is as uselessly reductive as referring to tigers as "just biology" or "biochemical reactions"”) > By your logic, video game characters must use reasoning, when no, they don't. It's maths. “By your logic, if tigers are dangerous, then bananas must be too, when no, they aren’t. It’s biology.”
The genetic programming scene kind of evolved into NEAT, HyperNEAT and ES-HyperNEAT as a meta learning concept. Connections between layers/nodes are serialized as genes of agents with phenotypes and dominant/recessive markers, and an observing CPPN learns to categorize agents into different traits to find more efficient breeding mechanisms. It's a strong concept, and AFAIK it's still used a lot in the robotics world where you have to guarantee behaviors and have to be able to reproduce behaviors due to safety regulations. There was a nice intro video into the underlying base concept which is called NEAT by a youtuber named SethBling [2] In my case I'm using this as a decentralized learning approach, because peer to peer networks can benefit heavily from genetic AIs that can communicate, adapt and learn from themselves. [1] [LINK] [2] this video