What makes love last?

What Hacker News says

1. rednerrusNov 2022
   What Makes Love Last is really a good one too. Helped me to really understand that love is about trust and what that meant. John Gottman is a treasure.
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2. rednerrusJul 2021
   "What Happened To You" by Oprah and Bruce Perry https://www.amazon.com/What-Happened-You-Conversations-Resil...: This helped me to wrap my head around concepts I've been working on for a long time. How what happened to you affects what you're doing now. It also has advice about how to "fix" some of it with small, controllable doses of discomfort.

   "What Makes Love Last" By John Gottman https://www.amazon.com/What-Makes-Love-Last-audiobook/dp/B00...: The underlying premise of this book is that love, friendship etc., are based on trust. It relates some of it to game theory in a way that really clicked with me.

   "Becoming The Kind Father" by Calvin Sandborn https://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Kind-Father-Sons-Journey/dp/...: This really helped me connect with my internal voice and taught me that it's ok to create a group of people you can communicate your upset feelings with and how to manage that.

   There were a bunch of books that I read to understand how important physicality is to all of this. I can't think of one particular one to call out. You need to sleep enough, eat well, get some movement, and get some meditation. There are some other physical things that are helpful. I see a somatic therapist and we do therapy while she works on my body. Of all of the therapy I've ever done, it's the best.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFqotaIc3Dw this before bedtime has been a game changer.

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3. pdfernhoutJul 2020
   That must be difficult -- especially feeling isolated as an immigrant. Kudos to you for doing a lot of hard work emotionally to stick with an unpleasant situation for so long for your kids and planning to tough it out for another few years for them. That effort acknowledged, is there any way to make things better for everyone involved so the energy it takes up for emotional endurance in the face of difficulty could go into other more positive directions?

   Creating a face-to-face support group for yourself with even just one local friend might help (difficult right now with the pandemic). Or if that seemed impossible (you could ask yourself why), if you turned to a professional counselor just for yourself (given your wife won't go), after evaluating your situation (and charging you a bunch of money as essentially a paid friend), here are some things that maybe one might say depending on the circumstances? (Along with the many other great things people have posted in response to this article.)

   You might find of interest books by John Gottman on marriage like "What Makes Love Last?" in trying to improve things -- or at least understand them better to accept or reject them. A key point Gottman makes (and which the article echoes) is that contempt (e.g. "belittling") is a bad sign in marriage. Ideally something could be done to turn that around. Many books talk about the importance of communication in relationships, but there are lots of happy marriages where people don't "communicate" or even may communicate badly -- but what they do usually have is mutual respect in some form (maybe even in unexpected and quirky ways specific to the relationship).

   In theory living with someone who is always right (if such were indeed the case) could be an asset (e.g. an exponentially expanding stock portfolio, always the "right" thing to say to comfort someone, always choosing the right home improvement contractor, always buying the right car for changing family needs, etc.). So why does being right have to be coupled with the problematical behavior to you that makes you unhappy? The issue of lack of compassion and kindness seems a different one than being right. As one possible explanation, you might want to look into Asperger's and women, in case a poor "theory of mind" in terms of understanding someone else's feelings and perceptions is an aspect of this (and if such were the case, there are books on making the most of that).

   A link to Gottman's work, Asperger's in women, and some other resources like for coping with stress (and even depression) are in this reading list I've put together: https://github.com/pdfernhout/High-Performance-Organizations...

   Books on using positive reinforcement to shape behavior as is done with dolphins (and profoundly autistic children) might also be of interest (e.g. Karen Pryor's "Don't Shoot the Dog!: The New Art of Teaching and Training"). A variation of that idea is changing your behavior when your wife does something to avoid reinforcing your wife's behaviors -- kind of like discussed in "Bullies to Buddies" by Izzy Kalman. That last may sound like "blaming the victim" but, as Izzy Kalman says, sadly and realistically "victims" are usually more motivated to change.

   People generally do more of something when they feel rewarded for it and less of something when rewards are absent. The tricky thing about rewards is that rare random rewards tend to be the most reinforcing. So reacting to your wife's negative behavior some way only occasionally (say, one out of five times you react in a way she wants) can be highly reinforcing to your wife's behavior. Similarly when your wife occasionally does something that can be seen as kind or compassionate, how can that be appropriately reinforced?

   Or maybe there are other underlying stresses in your wife's life unrelated to home that could be addressed somehow to reduce the problem -- like having a dog that reacts badly to certain situations and keeping them away from the situation? That at least might reduce the scale of the issue.

   I once made a list of dozens of ways to shape behavior (including just accepting the problematical behavior and thinking of it as a reminder about other good things in the situation -- e.g. trying to see dirty dishes left in the sink as a reminder of overall goodness). Maybe you could make such a list to give yourself ideas? Still, while operant conditioning may help in theory smooth out some rough edges, humans are also more complex social, intellectual, and spiritual beings and there is a lot more to relationships and happiness than control (and of course being "right").

   For example, Carol Dweck writes about how it is best to teach children that "the brain is like a muscle" and the more you use it, the smarter you get. She says kids who were told they were "smart" or "talented" as kids often become fearful of trying out new things where they might fail which would tarnish their self image of being "smart". Such children praised for being "smart" also often tend towards tearing others down in order to keep themselves feeling up as "image maintenance" (a possible origin of what was mentioned in the article). Thus it is better to praise effort or progress in kids (or adults). If it is the case with your wife's upbringing that she was praised as being "smart", I'm not sure what to suggest -- but maybe some reflection on that might lead to new possibilities? To create a situation where people can grow and accept imperfections as one way to help, maybe both of you trying something new together (swing dancing?) -- laughing together at your mistakes while learning?

   In general, someone who thinks they are right all the time probably is avoiding personal growth by taking on new challenges. For example, one humbling experience for me was to play "World of Tanks" with my son when I was around age 50 and he was really getting into it. Even though I eventually battled my way up to tier ten American artillery through a lot of effort (and ~US$250 worth of "gold"), I had to accept was never very good at WOT relative to many other players in the game (even as for some tanks I was able to be about average). And compared to artillery, I am much worse at light tanks like my son usually plays which require quicker reactions (whereas artillery generally requires more patience and planning). One can look at the WOT stats for all players -- so it is hard to fool yourself about how good you are -- including for artillery guessing how tanks will move so you can lead your shots correctly. While there are activities in life I am good at (and tend to gravitate towards), it was a beneficial experience for me at my age to reinforce the need for continual learning. It was also a good reminder that one can be not that great at something and still have fun at it with someone you care about. That (challenging) WOT experience also helped me be a better employee with a new job going up multiple learning curves in new areas -- in terms of being more patient with my own current limits and also the current limits of others.

   Even if someone was right all the time, one person can't be everywhere and do more than one or a few things at once. Thus the adage for perfectionists to contemplate of: "The woods would be pretty quiet if no bird sang there but the best." Also, if your wife is right so often because she is a perfectionist, "perfectionism" has its own personal sorrows: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfectionism_(psychology)

   Ultimately, a problematical relationship doesn't necessarily mean the people in it are problems. It just means the particular match was challenging and the people involved did not have the skills or circumstance or priorities to make that particular combination of personalities work better. Sometimes skills can be upgraded or circumstances changed or priorities reevaluated. And, sadly sometimes not. The "Ann Landers question" was never "Can you find someone better?" since that is in theory always possible if unlikely, but "Are you better with or without them?" If you have already answered that question (all things considered, including kids) as "with", then hopefully some of the above could help make things a bit better.

   Good luck with managing the situation as best as possible for the most happiness possible for yourself and your family.

   And maybe all these ideas are wrong or inappropriate for your situation... :-)

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4. pdfernhoutJul 2020
   You're welcome. That's a tough situation (but a common one). The main things I can thing of right now are:

      * continue to be a good example
      * try to reduce stress in her life (without increasing yours significantly)
      * be a good listener
      * consider a physical hobby together like swing dancing -- or maybe walking or swimming or yoga or kayaking in the sunshine (ideally things your kids can be safely involved in too)
      * consider humor (healthy humor; maybe read up on that like stuff by Joel Goodman such as "Laffirmations" or things by others)
     * consider a temporary change of scenery (like an active vacation in the sun?)
   

   Kudos on your own success though. That has to be helping your wife even if indirectly in being able to be a better parent and better spouse.

   One idea is like on airlines: "Put on your own oxygen mask first before assisting others". You've already done that, but keep it in mind. As Zig Ziglar said, "People often say that motivation doesn't last. Well, neither does bathing - that's why we recommend it daily." Also, a lot of this for everyone is a spiral -- or ups and downs with backsliding. It takes practice (and mistakes) to get better at things. You might find of general interest two somewhat funny movies by Joe Cross called "Fat Sick and Nearly Dead I and II". They talk about progress and backsliding and progress again in nutrition and exercise. They might be useful in knowing you are not alone in that sense.

   You can try to structure your shared environment (also to your own benefit) to make doing the healthier thing easy to do. Like maybe figuring out a better way to open and close curtains -- maybe even something automated? Maybe consider a treadmill workstation (although it requires reasonably good eyesight so works better at younger ages with more flexible accommodating eye lenses). The pandemic makes socializing harder of course, but maybe think about how you can help your wife more easily stay connected to any friends or family she already has (even one phone call a week).

   Also, a gift card for yoga in a way just adds to your wife's workload (including travel to and from lessons). So how about getting a yoga mat and doing yoga together at home? Again, setting a good example yourself could help. As is the idea of making doing the healthier things easier.

   Since the issue (including nagging) may affect your relationship eventually, consider pre-emptively reading a John Gottman book like "What Makes Love Last". Maybe also check out this HN discussion and story on "Beware of Being "Right"" to avoid crossing over from being supportive to being controlling: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23802241

   Also, rather than nag given it is not working (but still may make you feel good that you are trying and so be reinforcing to you), consider saying nothing about what you think should happen but instead providing some sort of positive reinforcement for your wife when she actually does a healthy thing -- even a small step. Look at writings or videos by dolphin trainers or positive-reinforcement-only dog trainers, like perhaps Karen Pryor. People are always doing a variety of things, so look for the positive tiniest incremental improvements and help them grow. That will also help you yourself focus more on looking for the positive things your wife is doing than the negative.

   Or, at a higher cognitive level, since you are interested in influencing decisions, you could also look into books on selling, like Dan Pink's "To Sell is Human". From the blurb: "To Sell Is Human offers a fresh look at the art and science of selling. As he did in Drive and A Whole New Mind, Daniel H. Pink draws on a rich trove of social science for his counterintuitive insights. He reveals the new ABCs of moving others (it’s no longer “Always Be Closing”), explains why extraverts don’t make the best salespeople, and shows how giving people an “off-ramp” for their actions can matter more than actually changing their minds. Along the way, Pink describes the six successors to the elevator pitch, the three rules for understanding another’s perspective, the five frames that can make your message clearer and more persuasive, and much more. The result is a perceptive and practical book–one that will change how you see the world and transform what you do at work, at school, and at home."

   Yoga nidra or positive visioning might also help if your wife does want to change something?

   If you can address one aspect, which should it be? I'd suggest sleep. That can be a huge challenge with young kids. Try reading "Why We Sleep" by Matthew Walker. Or maybe listen to it as an audio book? What I got from that book was a sense that our brains are adapted to run overclocked (as it were) during daylight hours, building up waste products and also accumulating unstored memories. When we sleep well, channels in the brain literally widen and fluid flows to wash away the toxic buildup (which otherwise can contribute to Alzheimer's), our brain moves memories of the day into long-term storage, or brain via dreams also processes traumatic events of the day to remove the distressing emotional overtones and learn from them. But that only happens with good sleep. So, ask yourself, how can you help your wife get better sleep? You can also ask yourself if maybe she is a night owl trying to keep a schedule better for a morning lark or vice versa?

   Anyway, some ideas to get you started. Now that you are thinking more about this, all sorts of ideas might come into your attention. Still, in the end, no one is perfect (if such a thing is even definable given conflicting -priorities). So take time to enjoy your imperfect relationship with your imperfect wife and imperfect kids -- and try to be thankful every day for how lucky you are given you are imperfect too (as is everyone in some way). That might help reduce some of the stress of the situation for everyone -- which might have its own beneficial effects.

   Good luck!

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