The Victory of Reason

What Hacker News says

1. WalterBrightJun 2023
   > Diamond also attempts to explain why European, rather than Chinese, conquerors were the ones who did all the colonizing. This is a simple balkanization theory—Europe divided into many areas conducive to states, China formed a great homogenous core—that does not need lengthy restatement. Europe has a highly indented coastline with multiple large peninsulas, all of which developed independent languages, ethnic groups, and governments, plus two large islands.

   Roberts' "The Triumph of the West"

   https://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Triumph-West-Press/dp/1842124...

   has a quite different take on this. He says the difference comes from a different cultural perspective. It's been a long time since I read it, but I'll try to summarize it with the Chinese perspective was that phenomena could not be modeled. Everything was a unique creation. I.e. the behavior of a model could not be extrapolated to explain other behaviors, while the European perspective was always trying to explain things with models.

   Another cultural difference was the European notion (intentional or otherwise) of free markets. This is expounded upon by another book, "The Victory of Reason" by Stark

   https://www.amazon.com/Victory-Reason-Christianity-Freedom-C...

   My own observation of history is that the key factor is recognition of and protection of the rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness produce massive technological progress and the uplifting of society.

   Societies that recognize these rights thrive, those that do not, fall by the wayside as they are unable to compete.

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2. WalterBrightFeb 2024
   My source is "The Victory of Reason" by Rodney Stark starting on page 131.

   https://www.amazon.com/Victory-Reason-Christianity-Freedom-C...

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3. WalterBrightJul 2023
   I bet piece work was paid for the piece, i.e. results, not time in the seat.

   I never wrote that all work was done in the office, sheesh. Besides, any organized labor project is going to need the labor on site. Piece work can only be done if no coordination or teamwork is needed.

   > the master craftsmen of the guild system began to assign their apprentices work on pieces which could be performed at home

   Sounds like speculation to me. Where are those apprentices going to get the tools? Is he just going to carry the anvil home with him? How about the forge? Even hand tools have historically been pretty costly items, up until just a few years ago.

   > Did you not have any history classes in your early schooling?

   Not much history is taught in public schools - not my fault. But I have a cite for you:

   "Chapter 2 examines the material and religious foundations of capitalism that were laid down during the so-called Dark Ages."

     -- The Victory of Reason by Rodney Stark, pg. xiv
   

   Capitalism is a heluva lot older than 1549.
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4. AnimalMuppetAug 2022
   In The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark says that Imperial China actually had an industrial revolution, in the 11th century. They produced 100,000 tons of iron. They were using the iron to improve productivity of other things. And then the imperial court ordered that everything be shut down because the wrong kind of people were getting rich.

   Stark has sources for this, which he documents, but I can't cite them because I don't have the book with me at the moment.

   But, presuming that Stark's sources are accurate, Imperial China did have an industrial revolution. The powers that be decided that it was causing too much disorder in their society, so they killed it.

   So maybe that's a big part of the answer. When it happens, don't kill it with stupid politics.

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5. AnimalMuppetJul 2019
   What killed the Chinese iron industry wasn't the lack of a Bessemer converter. What killed them was the mandarin bureaucracy. The mandarins saw that some commoners were getting rich in the iron industry, declared it to be contrary to the proper order, and shut it down. (Source: "The Victory of Reason" by Rodney Stark.)
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6. AnimalMuppetJun 2019
   If I understand correctly, China could have ruled the world at least twice.

   First, around 1100, China was starting in on an industrial revolution. They peaked at tens of thousands of tons of iron produced each year. Then the mandarins noticed that some commoners were getting rich, which was contrary to the proper order, and the government shut down the iron industry, and the whole thing stopped. But they could have had at least the beginnings of the industrial revolution five centuries before England. (Source: The Victory of Reason, by Rodney Stark.)

   Second, China had fleets that dominated at least the Far East, and could have dominated the Indian Ocean. But shortly after 1434, the Chinese emperor decreed an end to the voyages of their great fleet. (Source: 1421 and 1434, by Gavin Menzies.)

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