Case for Christ

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1. cameron_bNov 2024
   Q being their lived experience is not out of the question. Finding a written Q would for some detract from the quality of the gospels as a primary source.

   Lee Strobel has a good take on the authenticity of the Gospel account in his book The Case For Christ [0] and as always the book is better than the movie

   [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/73186.The_Case_for_Chris...

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2. DoveOct 2023
   > I simply rephrased the parent post’s definition of faith, nothing more.

   Oh, I know, I know, and both of you are only rehearsing what is common knowledge in the culture. It's just, that culture consists of people who don't have faith, and among people who do, it's something quite different. Ask a Catholic, a Jew, a Muslim, heck even a Buddhist - it won't be exactly what I said, but it'll be a lot more like what I said than what you said. I'm not trying to be hostile - just executing a cultural exchange.

   What is the evidence for God existing?

   This will no doubt annoy you, but I'll frame the answer to that by talking about faith a little more. See, the way I've described things, faith is a very rational process, something an intellectually healthy person does all the time. You have some notion of "sufficient" evidence that lets you believe something, trust something, act on something. I presume you have a lot of faith in the scientific process, such that when it tells you something you believe it! That is an example of healthy faith. You did have a rational basis for belief at some point, long ago, but really by now you've been trusting it for a long time, and it's been working out, and it makes sense of everything. That's strong, healthy faith. It isn't weird at all. It's rational and normal.

   I have that sort of rational and normal faith - in God. Which makes it weird if you ask me for evidence that God exists, sort of like asking how you know science works. It kind of takes a minute to even get your head around a perspective that could ask a question like that. You are coming from an alien perspective to me, a position of zero faith, of distrust, you want evidence of a distant and theoretical God, God as an abstract and safe idea, like you might ask for evidence of the existence of electrons. My first inclination is to laugh, and point at the nearest power cable! That must seem nonsensical, but the truth is that to me God is as concrete and real and close and dangerous as an electrical socket. I don't believe in God the way I believe in electrons, but more like the way I believe in my car. I drive it to work every day. Of course it exists. I interact with it, in an undeniable way, on the average Tuesday. But of course, my evidence wouldn't be yours, much the same as a science skeptic wondering about electrons is unimpressed by an electric tea kettle. He doesn't know how it works, but who says it has anything to do with electrons? Okay, you might ask yourself, why do I believe in electrons? And - after moment sputtering and hardly knowing where to begin - you say well, all right, there's this paper, and they guffaw at the scientific establishment. And you say, well okay, there's this one experiment that's actually accessible enough I did it myself, personally, in college, it was really neat... And they poke holes in that. And on and on.

   The science skeptic in that story is coming from a position of zero faith, of hostility to faith, and is committing a very similar intellectual sin to the the pandemic fearer who won't come out in my previous example. This individual won't have faith when he really ought to, when he really should, and it's clear something else is going on. Of course, it's always possible to doubt any evidence, reality is never certain certain, but something about this guy is clearly messed up. You start to wonder if what's actually going on is that an electron kicked his dog at some point. And generally speaking, that's usually exactly what it is.

   I've heard it said that the opposite of faith is fear, and I think it can be. I would say it's emotional dysregulation towards belief. Sometimes you refuse a conclusion out of fear. Sometimes shame. Sometimes pride. I have found with atheists it's often anger.

   It's a phenomenon we're all familiar with in politics, right? That dang left-wing/right-wing guy cannot see the obvious because there's something emotionally wrong with him.

   So I mean, all of that is to say, Why do I believe in God? What is the evidence? First of all, evidence is not why people believe or resist belief - the evidence is good, faith is the default, skepticism means something is going on and it's almost never about evidence. But second of all, I hardly know where to start! I guess, going back to the beginning for me personally, I was most impressed by the out-of-its-time wisdom and excellence of the Bible. Whoever wrote that is someone I want to follow. I think the facts surrounding the laws of physics, the origin of the universe, and the origin of life are particularly strong - the case that convinced Anthony Flew. Miracles are surprisingly, shockingly well documented, if you look. So routine you wonder how people manage not to believe in them. There are always the prophecies. And of course, I've spent a lifetime in the church, seeing faith accomplish astonishing things. And very personally, none of this matters - I am like Gideon, who put out the fleece, once, twice, it was enough, and I've been betting my life on it ever since. That is sufficient for me, but hardly accessible for you.

   For a tour of rational research leading to faith, Lee Strobel's Case For Christ is excellent, and is even available in movie format. There's another one about C.S Lewis that came out recently. Both depictions of hardened, rational skeptics who did the research and came away convinced. In another direction, if you want an astonishing and unbelievable depiction of what life is like on high magic settings, I recommend Reese Howell, Intercessor. I hail from somewhere in the neighborhood of Howell's reality.

   But it sort of doesn't matter, in your case - what convinces one person doesn't convince another. Zero faith is a wall that can't be gotten over with evidence, no matter how much. I would much rather convince one person to follow Jesus than pick up a Nobel prize, but the truth is that neither one is really in my power.

   But there is a test to look for the real issue. You can pray - something along the lines of, "God, if you're there, I'd like to know - show me." I think people from a zero faith perspective generally react to that proposition, not with the rational "lol what's the point?" but with more of a "No way, no how, absolutely not!" If you stop and think about it, that's an odd, strong reaction. What emotion was it? Why?

   See, a prayer like that is the sort of thing I'd expect God to take you up on, maybe eventually, or at least it seems like a possibility. Which, if you're emotionally hostile to faith, makes it a threat and lets you see what the problem is. If you don't want to do that, if there's an emotional reaction to the possibility that Someone really is out there and really might respond to you in a convincing way... the emotion that makes you hostile to a very small, very pointless, very tiny and experimental exercise of faith, is the dysregulation at the root of your hostility to faith in general. That is the reason no amount of evidence is sufficient, because evidence isn't emotion and doesn't untangle emotional issues. If you want a really dangerous next step from there... God untangles emotional issues. Sincerely asking for help with whatever the issue is, is close enough to the sinner's prayer to start things rolling - do it if you dare. ;)

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3. michaelmiorOct 2023
   I don't believe God is in outer space, but I do believe He exists. There's plenty of practical evidence to support it too. It's getting old now, but Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ" is a classic that does a good job at investigating a lot of this evidence.
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4. blitz_skullSep 2023
   Oops—sorry for the delayed response here!

   Yeah I think "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell is a great one. He was agnostic and set out to disprove Christianity and found its evidence was impossible to refute.

   Others I'd highly recommend would be: - More than a Carpenter, by Josh McDowell - The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel - Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis

   I find all of these books fascinating because they're all written by men who were atheists and set out to disprove the "foolishness" of Jesus. In the end, they all came to the same conclusion which is that the evidence that points to Jesus being the Son of God is very heavy. I'm not sure there's any reasonable evidence to the contrary. In fact, most atheists I've known and talked to were atheists not due to reason, but due to emotion. Christianity has a lot of emotional baggage that comes with it. We're all flawed people and unfortunately most people associate Christianity with abuse, rules, and condemnation. That's why I prefer talking about the person of Jesus. I've never met someone who could level a reasonable accusation at the person of Jesus, and after all—He's the entire reason any of us talk about any of this.

   If you read all 4 of those books and come away unconvinced I'd love to have a conversation! I was not able to retain my disbelief :)

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5. blitz_skullSep 2023
   Apologies for the delayed response! I urge you to take a look at a few of the books I listed in a sibling comment. While I have neither the time nor desire to expound at length the copious amount of evidence for the deity of Jesus of Nazareth, there are several men who have done so for me! In addition, these guys were not your devout raised-from-birth Christians who believe simply because they were told. Rather, they believed because they could not disprove the evidence for Jesus. In fact, I believe all 4 men were atheists who set out to disprove Jesus, but came to the conclusion that the evidence supporting his claims to deity are monumental!

   - Evidence That Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell

   - More than a Carpenter, by Josh McDowell

   - The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel

   - Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis

   Finally, this is addressed in probably each of these books, but as for your last comment. It's not unthinkable to imagine Jesus was so insane he was willing to die for his "personal views on ethics" (Although there's precious little evidence to support this, see the "Lord, Liar, Lunatic" argument). Nor is it outside the realm of possibility to think that perhaps his closest 12 followers were willing to die for a charade (Although again, there's no logical reason to support this idea)—I imagine stranger situations have occurred.

   But consider the vast history of Christianity, littered with martyrs whose only mandate to escape death was simply, "Deny Christ" and were yet unwilling to do so. It begins to become disingenuous to suggest that across 2,000 years people have been willing to die for one man's "personal views on ethics" when all that would be required to avoid said death is to simply say, "Jesus is not God", unless of course you were utterly convinced it was true.

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6. deckiedanJun 2019
   I suspect you're just trolling - but in case you're interested in /a/ perspective from within the broader Christian tradition...

   What is evil? What would "evil in men's hearts" mean?

   Evil as a concept can only exist if there is some kind of definition of Good, or Anti-Evil as well.

   If Good and Evil are both just arbitary made-up definitions by some supreme being with a control-complex, then screw everything, it's all a meaningless shitshow.

   Equally, if there is no Good or Evil, just physical/chemical/quantum reactions in a purely mechanical universe, then equally, screw everything. Do whatever makes the happy-chemicals in your brain do their thing.

   However, if there is some kind of absolute Good, and absolute Evil, and it's just figuring out what those are and mean that's the complex bit - now we have an interesting universe, and the potential for some kind of meaningful life.

   We all argue about whether or not there is a God - or if there is, what He/She/It/They think is Good and Evil, both in our behaviour and in theirs.

   But the concept of there being actions which are Good, or Right, and actions which are Evil or Wrong somehow seems baked into our outlook. We disagree about specifics, sure.

   It could be that for there to be the potential for Good there is also the potential for Evil. Maybe it's impossible to have Good in our hearts if there is not also Evil.

   So what would a supreme being want from us? To aim for good, and avoid evil, sure. We want that from each other too. And from ourselves.

   But there are other things too. The bible trys to say God's desired interaction with us is closest understood by the analogy of a Father/Child relationship.

   So as a Dad, sure, I want a bit of obedience, especially when they're young and learning... But I'd rather my kids choose Good themselves, and listen to me for advice, and decide for themselves whether or not what I say is Good. And if they disagree, but it's not going to hurt them (too much) or others, then I prefer them do something I think is wrong than them to blindly obey me. I can give them advice, direction, but the older they grow, the more what I really want from them is more and more towards a real friendship.

   And I believe the same is true with our interaction with God. I believe God is more interested in a relationship with us, even if we're arguing and debating with Him/Her/It/Them, than in us blinding obeying. I believe there is the potential for a much more fulfilling life by pursuing meaning (and God) than by deliberately turning our backs on the idea.

   Jesus said "seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you". Seems like a good advice to me.

   (If you want some links, Luke's gospel is an interesting place to start. Or "The Case for Christ" (The book by Lee Strobel - ignore the preachy movie) might be interesting.)

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