Jack Norris

Please check your sources. Such advice can be, and in fact is, dangerous to vegans.

Legumes or sprouts are not an adequate source of B12 and neither are other plant sources.

Your assertion that Nori has B12 is downright wrong.
B12 is only synthesized by microorganisms.

There are plenty of vegetarian options, but if you are vegan, you have to rely on fortified products and supplements.
This has nothing do to with where you happen to live.

You can check recommendations from physicians, researchers and most importantly Vegan associations all across the globe to the see this is true.

“The Vegetarian Resource Group (VRG) suggests that vegans need to have reliable sources of vitamin B12 in their diets. (1) The Vegetarian Nutrition Dietetic Practice Group (VNDPG) of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics says that all vegetarians (including vegans) should include a reliable B12 source in their diets, such as fortified foods or supplements. (2) And The Vegan Society goes so far as to state, “What every vegan should know about B12: the only reliable sources of B12 are foods fortified with B12 and supplements.” (3)“

I have seen people get sick ignoring these issues in a vegan diet.

“According to vegan expert and co-author of Vegan for Life, Jack Norris, RD, there are no reliable sources of B12 in plants, contrary to many rumors about sources, such as tempeh, seaweeds, and organic produce. Plants have no B12 requirement, therefore they do not have any active mechanisms to make…

"But look, the point is this: the definition of a poor diet is a diet that doesn't provide for all of the necessary nutrients as part of the diet. If you have to take supplements to make up for dietary shortfalls, your diet is a poor one...period. Waiving away the handful of supplements you take everyday is madness and a serious problem."

That's simply your opinion. You're obsessed with the evils of supplements. Who cares if you need a couple of supplements to make up for some known shortfalls? It's a trivial part of my day, and it's hardly a "handful of supplements". Besides, consuming animal products has its own set of drawbacks.

I'm not sure why the vegans you know are so concerned about iron and zinc. I'm deficient in neither and don't go out of my way to supplement them. They're readily available in many plant foods. I'm also well aware that vitamin D is produced in skin, but you might want to double check your latitude if you're relying on that in the winter.

My goal is not to get 100% of my dietary requirements from food. That's apparently your objective. I never claimed a vegan diet can provide all the nutrients you need without supplementation. I readily admit you have to take B12. Some other things might be good to supplement too, depending on the actual make up of your diet. This is true even if you are omnivorous.

This whole thread started because you made this claim: "Non-animal sourced diets are hopelessly unhealthy in the long term no matter how many…

> Do you think all vegans are the same? There is no need to make a huge generalization about a group that is so diverse.

True, I should have qualified this. It's only a subset of vegans who frustrate me this way.

> I've never seen anyone claim that meat is easier to digest than plants. Do you have a source?

Really? Google "is meat easier to digest than vegetable protein". It literally has millions of results.

> In terms of quality, you first need to define quality and that depends on your goals. Whole plant protein comes packed with fiber, while animal protein comes packed with cholesterol, IGF-1 and saturated fat. If your goal is to prevent heart disease and cancer through dietary means, plant protein is higher quality.

Yeah, I get this argument. It's why I'm eating vegetarian or vegan at least a few times a week these days.

> This statement makes it clear that you don't know much about vegan diets. This is usually a concern I hear from pre-vegans or people who have been vegan for 2 weeks.

I'm going by discussions such the ones in my vegan cookbooks, similar to this one:

http://veganhealth.org/articles/protein

> If you've been eating meat for 20 years, it will be easier for you to keep eating meat, no one is disputing that.

That was the crux of my argument: it is NOT easy to be vegan, stop saying it is. It is arguably better. Healthier and more ethically sound. But my vegan days have much more time-consuming shopping, cooking and prep days.

People who say it's a dangerous diet without any sources are only spreading FUD. Of course you don't just remove the meat, you replace it and get your nutrients elsewhere. I have a three-year old vegan daughter that is thriving, and we spent New Year's with two families, each with vegan one-year olds.

If the above children are still too young for the alleged negative health effects, read up on older vegan children at [1]. If you want the American Dietetic Association guidelines [2]:

"Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life-cycle including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood and adolescence and for athletes."

Instead of "pretty much impossible", I would say it's quite easy to provide all needed nutrients. All parents, not just vegan parents, should read up on childrens' nutritional needs. But it doesn't matter if the protein comes from meat or kidney beans, or if the B12 and calcium come from cow's milk or fortified oat milk.

[1] http://veganhealth.org/articles/realveganchildren

[2] http://www.eatright.org/Media/content.aspx?id=1233

Yeah great points. B12 is produced by a bacteria that lives in animal (and human) small intestines. It's not clear why it lives in some humans and not others, so the only way to ensure you're getting it is to take a supplement (or eat animal products since animals are supplemented). Nutritional yeast does not contain B12 unless they're fortified with it.

Contrary to Wikipedia and popular belief, B12 producing bacteria has been found in human small intestines (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7354869). It's just not clear why it lives in some people and not in others. Prior to modern hygiene practices vegetarian humans and animals probably got it from ingesting feces (in contaminated water or food fertilized with feces).

https://veganhealth.org/intestinal-bacteria-as-b12-source/#small

> Cruciferous vegetables and certain beans are also rich in choline, and other dietary sources of choline include nuts, seeds, and whole grains.

From https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Choline-HealthProfessional/

And in regards to B12,

> It has long been assumed that B12 is produced by bacteria in the large intestine (aka the colon), but since B12 is produced below the ileum (where B12 is absorbed), it is not available for absorption. This theory is reinforced by the fact that many species of totally or primarily vegetarian animals eat their feces.

https://veganhealth.org/intestinal-bacteria-as-b12-source/

I don't blame you for taking a supplement instead.