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    Ronald Duncan

    ronaldduncan.wordpress.com · Personal blog · on HN since 2011

    Ronald Duncan wrote a 2009 post arguing for ASCII delimited text instead of CSV or tab-delimited files.

    Visit blogHN submissions
    ProgrammingWriting & Thinking
    What HN says

    HN commenters return to it often as a perennial favorite on using ASCII separator characters, and some discuss the proposed USV format and why they still prefer TSV.

    Stats for nerds
    17HN people shared it
    9linked in comments
    833story points
    May 2022last shared
    2016people per year2022

    Top posts on HN

    1. 1
      ASCII Delimited Text – Not CSV or TAB delimited text
      17 people · 833 points · first shared 2011 · 280 comments on HN

    What HN people wrote when they linked it

    • corysamaJun 2016

      I really wish ASCII delimited text didn't die off.

      https://ronaldduncan.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/text-file-formats-ascii-delimited-text-not-csv-or-tab-delimited-text/

      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7474600

      But, it suffered from not having designated keys on common keyboards, therefore it wasn't obviously necessary for plain text editors to support. Meanwhile, everyone uses plain text editors for everything --even if it means jumping through hoops full of exceptions and corner cases to pretend they can handle more than plain text.

    • mftbMay 2022

      Replying to myself, because after reviewing other comments I realized I didn't read the linked post thoroughly enough. Near the end he proposes a format called "usv", basically using the control codes (unit separator \u001f and record separator \u001e) built into ASCII and now Unicode for their intended purpose, which is actually a really good idea! Apparently this had been noted earlier as a format called "adt"[0].

      [0]https://ronaldduncan.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/text-file-formats-ascii-delimited-text-not-csv-or-tab-delimited-text/

    • cylinder714May 2022

      More expressions of the same idea:

      https://www.ccsv.io/

      And this perennial favorite here at HN:

      https://ronaldduncan.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/text-file-formats-ascii-delimited-text-not-csv-or-tab-delimited-text/

      I've been toying with the idea of starting a change.org campaign, asking Microsoft to add support to Excel for importing and exporting such files. I don't see any way to make any progress if Microsoft won't push the industry forward.

    • rudolfwinestockNov 2018

      “Any file is a database if you awk hard enough.” —Bryan Horstmann-Allen

      https://twitter.com/neilkod/status/914217352564137984

      Furthermore, no thread on CSV files can be complete without mentioning this infamous bit of fact-trolling: the ASCII standard has had unit- and record-delimiters baked into it from the beginning.

      https://ronaldduncan.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/text-file-formats-ascii-delimited-text-not-csv-or-tab-delimited-text/

    • chasilAug 2021

      Wouldn't it be wonderful if we actually used ASCII as it was designed?

      Oct Dec Hex Char
      ----------------------------------------
      034 28 1C FS (file separator)
      035 29 1D GS (group separator)
      036 30 1E RS (record separator)
      037 31 1F US (unit separator)

      https://ronaldduncan.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/text-file-formats-ascii-delimited-text-not-csv-or-tab-delimited-text/

    • BlueTemplarNov 2020

      This is why I switched to TSV. The risks are too high.

      (Yes, I know about ASCII delimiters, but IMHO /t and /n are good enough for numbers-first files, especially considering how most keyboards don't feature the aforementioned delimiters, and hardly anyone has even heard of them.)

      https://ronaldduncan.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/text-file-formats-ascii-delimited-text-not-csv-or-tab-delimited-text/

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